Episode #111

Athlete: Sasha Digiulian 

Title: Sasha Digiulian on the Power of Self-Esteem and Advocacy

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Stef

Welcome to this week's episode of The Voice in Sport Podcast. Today we are so honored to be joined by Sasha Digiulian, an American professional rock climber,  CEO of nutrition food company called Send Bars, and author of her new memoir Take the Lead, which is releasing September 26th, 2023. Sasha has made significant contributions to the world of climbing. 

She is a three-time US national champion and an undefeated Pan-American champion from 2004 to the present. She’s also the first North American woman to climb grade nine A, the hardest climbing route achieved by a woman. 

Sasha's accomplishments extend beyond the sport of climbing. She is recognized for her passion for advocating for environmental conservation, outdoor education, mental health, and women's empowerment. 

Her success on the climbing wall shows us that women can also compete and thrive in male dominated sports. In this episode, Sasha opens up about body image being an imperfect advocate and how she works to maintain a strong mindset that helps her on difficult climbs and navigating life's obstacles. 

In our conversation, Sasha dives deep into what truly makes an elite climber and what it takes to be successful beyond your athletic abilities. 

Sasha

Without the hard work and all of the dedication that goes into improving in a sport, then that's about as far as you'll get is that first preliminary tier of being gifted.

Stef

She opens up about her struggle with disordered eating and the pressure to look a certain way while competing. 

Sasha

I started climbing when I was six, but when I started competing when I was seven, as early as when I was 12, I had a coach convincing me that I should lose five pounds the week before a competition.

Stef

And how she approaches being an imperfect advocate and finding confidence in using her voice. 

Sasha

What I always try to do when I speak is just be myself and be open to sharing what I truly believe is my own experiences and that then can trickle into universal feelings as well. 

Stef

Before we get started, if you'd love this podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and don't forget to sign up and join our community.

Sasha, welcome to the Voice and Sport Podcast.

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Sasha

 Thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited to dive in with you.

Stef

Let's get into the why of why you started climbing. You fell in love with the sport of climbing when you were six years old and started competing when you were seven. I think so many young girls enjoy sports, very young, but then have a hard time believing that they can pursue it as a job and instead of just a hobby.

So how did you go from, very young, six, seven year old, starting to climb to now a professional climber?

Sasha

Yeah, I started with zero background of even knowing that climbing was a sport. I grew up in the Washington, DC area and my brother had a climbing birthday party at a gym called Sport Rock, which is in Alexandria, Virginia. And I just remember loving it, which I think it does relate to becoming a professional athlete because you have to love what you're doing in order to succeed. But I didn't enter the sport with any aspirations of where it was gonna take me. It was just like this hobby that I looked forward to doing each week. 

I joined the junior team at the local climbing gym and then literally stumbled upon my first competition when I was seven. There was a youth regional championship happening when I showed up for like junior team practice one Saturday morning and I was like, "Whoa, what's this? Can I participate?” And the organizers ended up letting me participate even though I hadn't done the local qualifiers in order to be able to compete in the regional championship. But I was seven, competed in the 11 and under category, won my category, which far less youth involved in climbing then than there are today.

But that was kind of the very beginning of my competition career of learning more about climbing competitions even in the existence of where they are, to then going and winning Pan-American Championships, national Championships, world Championships, and having the career that I got to build upon.

Stef

What made you fall in love with the sport of climbing? For those of us that have never done climbing before, what is so amazing about the sport?

Sasha

I love the fact that you're in control of your own success. What you put into climbing is what you get out of it. And that connection with nature that I get to feel of going out and climbing and being present with my friends and being present in the elements and just living and breathing fresh air while doing something that challenges me physically, but also mentally.

It's like you have this gigantic puzzle piece in front of you and you're trying to put together the pieces while also getting physically taxed in your body. It's a very mind-body sport, which I love. And I love just the exploration aspect of it too. It takes me all around the world and I get to experience different cultures and communities from a very ground level approach.

Stef

What would you say makes an incredible elite climber?

Sasha

I don't know because there are so many different elite climbers with different backgrounds. I would say that having really strong fingers is one necessary part of being a climber, and that's something that you train. So you can go from not having strong fingers to training them and preparing. Strong core, core plays a huge aspect in the sport. Good flexibility, which is something that I am now grappling with since I had double hip reconstructive surgery two years ago so a lot of my really natural flexibility was gone and I have to work on mobility a lot now.  And also, a good ability to problem solve while being active; so using your mind while being physically taxed is important.

Stef

How much would you say of being an elite climber and somebody to be successful in the sport comes from natural abilities you're born with versus work ethic and trying to get there?

Sasha

I think that there's always a combination, right? In sport and in anything, if you have a natural ability to have a baseline of being good, that's a start. But without the hard work and all of the dedication that goes into improving in a sport, then that's about as far as you'll get is that first preliminary tier of being gifted. But without hard work and without acting on opportunities, then that gift is almost, I don't wanna say wasted because that sounds kind of negative, but it's not necessarily gonna lead to any sort of progression. 

Stef

What I love about climbing is a lot of firsts, right? There's some incredible things that climbers go after and do and one of those things is actually first ascents. So kind of going from the ground up into the unknown and being the first to climb a route. So, can you talk to us about your first ascent and what does that mean to you? What did that feel like compared to maybe a normal route that you would do, just on an average day?

Sasha

Yeah, I think that there's an aspect of doing first ascent that is really intriguing to me because it's my latest project that I've been working on with my mentor and now friend Lynn Hill, who's real legend and within our sport of climbing has been, we went and discovered the potential of this line that exists in the Flat Irons in Colorado.

No woman has ever actually bolted a climb in the Flat Irons. It's always been male development. And, what I love about Lynn is she's such a pioneer within the climbing space.  And we together went and started exploring this beautiful cliff, and no one had ever climbed this line before. And so it's almost like you have this gigantic canvas of possibility that you don't know is possible or not. And then you start kind of like envisioning and fine tuning little different pieces that are like one foot, literally at a time of say a thousand foot wall. And finding out yourself if things can  parcel together, and if there is a potential of doing something that you didn't know was possible or not.

And the fact of no human before ever doing that is really a mental challenge as much as it is physical because you have to think creatively and really understand and read the elements and be a part of the elements in order to put pieces together. And my experience with Lynn in this process has been really encouraging from my perspective because in climbing, I haven't had many female role models. And so learning from Lynn, even just on the way that she goes about solving movement and the way that she goes about thinking about a climb may be different from me, but putting our minds together and our different skill sets to go after this big audacious goal has been really inspiring to also team up with another woman.

Stef

Yeah, it's so incredible. I mean, rock climbing is a male dominated sport, and according to one of the papers we were reviewing in the Journal of Current Research in Physiology, the ratio of rock climbers by gender is 60% men to 40% women. It's not bad compared to a lot of other sports. But there's still definitely that male dominated component that you probably feel as a woman climber. So it is so important to have other women by your side like you have with Lynn. That's amazing that you have an incredible mentor.

What do you feel like are some of the barriers for women in the world of rock climbing and bouldering? And how has that come to life for you as an elite climber during your journey from amateur sports to becoming a pro as a woman? 

Sasha

I would say one of the biggest issues is just overall acceptance and a sense of belonging. I battle with consistently this imposter syndrome because, throughout my career, I've always felt this need to prove my worth and prove why I have what I have and why I deserve success. Going against the grain of what may be the norm or the precedence in climbing, especially as, you know, a woman who embraces her feminine side and who loves fashion but also loves to be outdoors.

I think that there's a lot of monochrome within the outdoor space that I look to where it's changing is just helping educate and showcase that there's a space for all people. Whatever your background is, whether you come from a city, come from a mountain background,  whatever you want to be, and I think that that sense of belonging and sense of  internal belief is one of the hardest things to contend against and just feeling like there's a space for you.

As a female entering the climbing space, knowing that I could dream up my own goals and go after them and feel empowered to do that. I think I was definitely really privileged by the people I grew up around and having positive impacts in my life of people not saying, "You can't do that cause you're a woman," but I've also had a lot of negative naysayers too. And so building that community of positive feedback and your inner circle of which opinions you allow yourself to let permeate your surface and which opinions don't because especially on the internet, like there's so much negativity, there's also a lot of positivity and knowing how to filter through is really challenging.

Stef

What would be some of those traditional stereotypes or traditional norms that you would wanna just break for young women out there today that are thinking about getting into the world of climbing, but might feel a little bit intimidated and, things are changing, which is great, but I'm sure there's still some cultural norms that you'd wanna crush. What would those be?

Sasha

Honestly. I think one of them is  feeling like you're not core enough. Core is a term that's tossed around in climbing, and I think in some other industries too of like you live, breathe, and die for climbing. And sure, that's great; that's the road for some people, but I also remember when I decided to go to university in 2012. I had just won the world championships, just climbed the hardest route that women had achieved in the world, which is a 9A. And I was faced with so much negative criticism around like, "Why are you throwing away your career to go to college?" And my perspective is always like, "Why can't I do both?" 

And so I think that, knowing that you don't have to just be a singular focused mind in order to have a sense of belonging in the sport. I like to say “don't dull your sparkle” because there's so many avenues at which like you can succeed in one thing while also having interests in other things and not suppressing those interests has been something that I'm only now learning. 

I've gone through a lot within the outdoor industry of trying to  dampen other things that I'm working on because I wanna fit in with the idea like, "Only focused on climbing, only living on a climbing trip a hundred percent of the time," while also loving to do other things. So I think that that's one that can feel inhibiting. You can be a person of multi-facets and still belong and succeed in climbing.

Stef

Yeah. And then I think that's so amazing coming from somebody who's a world champion and who has also done first ascents, right? You are discovering other parts of who you are, and that's probably making you a better climber. So you have this incredible business that you have started, which we're gonna talk about today, and you have also worked really hard on writing your first book, so I'm really excited to dive into that.

You are coming out with this book in September and it's titled Take the Lead.

Sasha

It's "Take The Lead" because, as a female athlete in climbing, a lot of my success that I've had when there's a male climber present, has been attributed to that. And a saying in climbing is, "Do you wanna take the lead?” Which means “Do you wanna go first and do you wanna put the rope up?” And that's something that a lot of my big wall climbs that I've achieved with the male counterpart have been really enriching amazing experiences where we've shared the task and then afterwards heard murmurs within the core community of me maybe not doing as much as my male counterpart or whatever it may be.

And so that was a big part of why I have led all female expeditions too, because then people can't attribute my success to a male climber being present. And I would say I love climbing with women and I love climbing with men. I think it's all about just like that personality match. But something that I think can be really mentally challenging is when you give something you're all, and then other people try and discredit you.

Stef

Well, I think it's absolutely incredible that you're taking the time to do this. And I know that writing a book is not easy, right? It takes time. It's a lot of passion to do it, also a lot of vulnerability to share your story. So, out of this experience, first tell us, how long have you been writing this book? And for you, what has it boiled up for you to the surface that has now become something that you're really excited about the world to see?

Sasha

Well, I'm very nervous because I'm very vulnerable in my book and I feel empowered by that too. I've been working on the book since 2020. I started with a proposal and an outline, and then I sold the book to Macmillan Publishing with St. Martin's Imprint. So that was when I knew, "Okay, I have a book deal and I'm gonna do this."

And really just revisiting through the journey of  this very cathartic experience of going back to foundational memories of even me just as a child beyond climbing, but being a woman getting into sports and discovering myself and feeling like an outsider through my early education days of just like being in middle school and having climbing being a sport that many people didn't even know existed. And then you're talking to friends who are in lacrosse or field hockey or other sports that are just more "cool" and always feeling embarrassed about climbing. 

And it's kind of ironic to say, because now I do a lot of  speaking about climbing and feel very proud of my background, but I didn't feel like that as an eighth grader or ninth grader. I was the kid who went to the library during lunch and just did my homework so that then I could kind of escape at the end of the day after school to go and be in this community where I felt like I belonged. But then there was also touch points where I didn't feel like I belonged in the climbing community. So, how do you navigate when you feel like an outsider in both realms?  

So writing the book and going through challenging moments in my life, including  loss of people that I love, including my dad,  to also empowering aspects of  how I've taken the reins of my own narrative.  Especially with  digital media, social media, storytelling and outlets, there's a lot of forums that try and tell your story for you. And so I got to find my voice through this and say, "Hey, guess what? This is how it actually happened." 

Producer

We hope you're enjoying this conversation between Steph Strack, our host, and Sasha DiGiulian today on the Voice and Sport Podcast. Sasha became a world champion climber at 18, breaking barriers in a male dominated sport. Now she shares how she did it in her breathtaking memoir Take the Lead that launches this month.

It's the story of what it takes to tackle the most fearsome climbs on and off the wall. Support a woman founder today by ordering “Take the Lead” now wherever books are sold. 

Now let's get back to the episode.

Stef

You talk a lot about, in your book, around social media harassment and that you've been subjected to a lot of scrutiny and negative comments online, and that's regarding politics or body image. And as a woman, this is something that we go through a lot regardless of what sport you're in. What advice would you have to other girls out there that might be dealing with that pressure of online scrutiny or online negativity?

Sasha

First of all, I wanna say we're all in it together. There's not a world in which, at least from my perspective, maybe I have a larger social media following with images that look cool, but you have to know that of all the positive comments, that negative comment is gonna ring over and over in my head and continue to affect me. And so I think that with that, something that I think is really important is filtering through whose opinions you let permeate your surface and really working on the relationships that are in real life around the people that love you and care about you, and cultivating that positive sphere so that the negativity that does exist online in any magnitude can have less of a stinging effect.  

And I think that using your own voice, finding my voice, really dictating what my ethos and morals are and standing true to them has been really important too. I believe that climate change, for instance, is a bipartisan issue. It's something that's affecting all of us who exist on this planet. I believe that women's access to sports is a very, very rudimentary aspect that should be accepted. So there are certain things that, sure, I get a lot of like pushback "Go crawl under a rock and stay away from politics." And then I moderated a conversation with Vice President Harris and a representative from Colorado and got to be on stage and talk about my values. 

What I deal with on a mental side is just constantly trying to positively reinforce and believe in the power of self-talk that we give to ourselves because I can be such a harsh critic to myself and so negative. And trying to recognize that and the actual serious effect that that has on my own self-esteem is also really important of like how we can manage our own internal power that we have through our own voice.

Stef

You're speaking VIS language. You know, VIS means power and force in Latin, and it's also the definition of Voice In Sport because everything you're saying is exactly what we're hoping to inspire other young athletes to do is use your voice and get behind something that is not only about you but is gonna help the greater good. And it's really incredible that you had that opportunity to share the stage with Vice President Harris.

I'd love to know just what was that experience like for you and what was your biggest takeaway when, for the other girls out there that might be considering to take action around something they believe in, what advice would you give them to say, "Go for it" because I'm sure you were nervous, but you got up there and you did it, and so what did you get from it?

Sasha

I think that the aspect of being an imperfect advocate is something that helps me. I don't know all of the sticks of policy and I don't also necessarily align in values of every single politician that I've spoken to. And I think that speaking to both sides of both parties, makes a lot of sense as well. I've spoken with people who are climate change deniers to people who fully embrace climate change action in their own governmental policies.

But, I think as far as like controlling my nerves and finding confidence, it's like what I always try to do when I speak is just be myself and be open to sharing what I truly believe is my own experiences and that then can trickle into universal feelings as well. 

Even on stage I talked about walking my dog on the trail. That maybe isn't such an extreme example of being a professional athlete who travels the world on extreme expeditions, but just the mental health component of having outdoor exposure and being with an animal that's just giving you love and that you can exchange that with, is a really human and grounding experience that I have that I'm not embarrassed to share because it might dilute some of my other experiences. So I think just being honest with what comes to your mind and if you can speak from a place of truth and really a place of what grounds you is something that I believe in is really important and being vulnerable.

Stef

I love that idea of imperfect advocacy. I always tell the girls at the Voice In Sport Foundation that are on the advocate team that advocacy is about taking action, right? It can be one step, can be many steps. It's about doing something. So I love that you're getting behind a lot of these issues, but you're also speaking about some things that are very personal to you that you struggled with.

So I wanna talk a little bit deeper in that area when it comes to the sport of climbing. We don't have a ton of climbers as part of the Voice In Sport community, but we have a lot of runners and we have a lot of women who are constantly being scrutinized on their weight and their weight to body ratio.

And I know in the sport of climbing, weight to strength ratio is definitely a thing. It is a thing that is talked about, obsessed, and unfortunately can really lead to a lot of body image issues. And I'm sure this is not just in women, but in women and in men. So, you were outspoken in 2017 in Outside Magazine speaking about body image issues that you had been facing yourself. So could you take us back to really where this started for you in your journey with your own body and then what did that result in, in terms of  your lifestyle when it comes to how you approach fueling your body?

Sasha

Absolutely. And I think that disordered eating is unfortunately something that's not just a female issue. It's a lot of people, across all genders, deal with this, especially, unfortunately, in the upper echelon aspects of sports and climbing is a strength to bodyweight ratio sport. I started climbing when I was six, but when I started competing when I was seven, as early as when I was 12, I had a coach convincing me that I should lose five pounds the week before a competition.

And I didn't even know really what dieting meant at that age. And I clearly remember being in the lunchroom with my friends from school and being like, "I'm gonna go on a diet," and like thinking "Oh, this seems very legit or cool.” It makes me more of a high stakes athlete but not even knowing the repercussions of what that meant.

But it's these little seeds that we're laying as we grow and as we learn that start just really becoming a part of the foundation of our outlook on sports and on performance. And when I was 17, was when I was competing on the World Cup circuit. Every single woman at the top of the podium that I looked up to was severely thin. And that was the status quo. And so then it started becoming this thing for me where I was like maybe I should be thinking more about, you know, what I put into my body and what my caloric output is that, as I was climbing more and more outside, it's kind of like you have these like very big expenditure days where you then become in a caloric deficit that naturally you can lose weight. And as I was starting to lose weight unintentionally at first, I started seeing peaks in my performance and then I started having people in the community say "Oh, you look so ripped, you look so great." 

And then realizing, "Oh wow, well I am like looking a little different." So I started stepping on the scale and noticing that that number was lower than, you know, my last doctor check-in. So it started becoming a thing for me to step on the scale, and it became really, really insidious to my performance. Like, I would wake up in the morning, get on the scale, and if I was like two pounds heavier than the day before, I would dictate how my climbing performance would be that day. And I had no education around nutrition, around the fluctuations of weight. I didn't have the proper mentorship or awareness in my life to even know how to cut weight if I wanted to in a healthy way. So I just started eliminating everything and being incredibly dictative over what I put into my body and then being super harsh on myself.  My body weight was being commented about online; I remember there was  an article titled "Climbers Who Cheat" and it was about the success of women in climbing and then correlative to their weight and people who lost weight in order to cheat for success.

And it was so incredible to me to see that this thing that was eating away at my mental health was then being tackled within the community through whispers and through negative criticism around "I bet she doesn't even get her period," and laughing about that on comments in the feed of my videos of me climbing. So I think that, from a more mature stance, don't read the comments in your feed. But we all do and it's all a part of life, and it's very hard to not see that type of negativity. 

But I went to college in 2012 as a freshman at Columbia, and it was my first exposure to being with people who didn't just live and breathe climbing because I had deferred a year before between high school and college to just pursue World Cups, the year that I won the female overall world championship title.

And I was around people that were very, very firm in the fact that you had to solely focus on one thing to succeed, that then having this healthy variety of people who actually ate salads with dressing. And you know, maybe, God forbid, dessert or ice cream; this is like a language that I never allowed myself to then also not ruminating over it and not saying because I ate this scoop of ice cream tomorrow, I won't be able to climb.

It's really mental and I think that it's something that is an ongoing pursuit for me because my weight and what I look like just is always kind of unfortunately something that people feel the right to comment on. And it's also why I founded Send Bars. So through my whole journey within climbing, I found out that I had celiac disease, which had been really affecting like, I felt super bloated and  really uncomfortable often when I ate meals. And because I had such a toxic relationship and background with food too, as it pertained to my performance, my body was just all out of whack and finding that out and learning more about how to nutritiously fuel myself, I started making my own bars and. And I would be in my college dorm blending together nuts and dates and vegetable powders and bringing them on expeditions because they didn't have refined sugar and chemicals and preservatives and all these natural flavoring - which by the way has no FDA regulation at all. 

So I'm always like, "Don't eat natural flavorings.  It could be insect guts, for all we know." And so then I guess fast forward to this last year I launched Send Bars because it'd been  this long term journey that I've been on around  learning how to fuel myself properly and trusting what I put into my body. 

But from a healthy perspective,  I will never say eat a bar as a meal replacement because I don't think that 200 calories should be a meal replacement. I think that calorically, that's not enough, but having a full serving of greens and  plant-based protein and really nutritious, well sourced food is an easy way to stay fueled while trying to push your body because that was something that I learned too after countless injuries of not fueling myself properly, running too much, getting a stress fracture because I was not having healthy bones and feeling myself before or after runs. All of that was just culminating into the snowball effect of why I feel so passionate about nutrition now.

But I still do, I'm critical of my body; it's something that I don't feel like I've gotten over and I don't know if I ever will, but I try and pour my resources into learning how I can be healthy and learn more about how to fuel my body in a positive way.

Stef

Well, thank you for sharing that. I'm sure it's not easy to talk about these things. It shows our imperfections as humans, and it's really important to do that because you're not alone. Especially in sports where there's such a tension to women's bodies and the ratio of weight to strength, it is consistently a topic that we're all gonna be facing. What I would like to go back to is all the way back to when you were 12 and you got that one comment about your weight. And I think it's so important for everybody out there to understand the impact of what you say about somebody's body, and especially at  that younger age is so critically important that you watch what you say.

And so for the people around young women in sport, it is critical that you are, thinking through the impact of your words, as especially at that young age, as it can start to trigger really bad habits. So if you were to think about all these young girls out there today that are in the sport of climbing or in other sports where there's that kind of consistent attention just to weight to sport ratio, what's the mindset that you're now trying to work on for yourself that you would also want all these young girls to try to have when it comes to the concept of weight to strength ratio?

Yeah, it's so important.  Just don't comment on women's bodies.  Even still when I'm at the gym and someone's like, "Wow, you have such strong muscles." Just don't do it because it makes me feel insecure. I don't wanna be told that my arms look huge. It's already an insecurity point and these muscles do things for me. They're my tool to perform in my sport and I'm still insecure about them. 

I think that a number on a scale is not going to tell the whole story. And that's something that, even as educators, I feel around nutrition and sports science now can still affect me. I had a primary care appointment for just an annual check-in and I hadn't been on the scale in a long time and I got on and I was like, "Ooh, I don't like that number." But I've been doing a lot of like lifting and upper body work cause I've had a leg injury and just understanding, "Yeah, maybe I have more muscle right now."

But I think that the mindset around that relationship aspect of our bodies and ourselves are in a constant fluid state of a relationship. And what you have in a relationship is ups and downs and good days and bad days and forgiveness and communication. And I think that the way that I say that is because say you don't feel confident in your own skin, I think finding the confidence in what you're doing, whether it's not like something physical that you're achieving. I've gone through a lot of injuries where I've been sidelined from my sport and felt totally useless with my body because I've been like, I'm not in prime condition shape. I don't feel like I look like an athlete. 

But then what does that even look like? And understanding that you can't a hundred percent of the time look like you're  trained to go run your fastest marathon. That's just not sustainable. And understanding that fat also is something that we're conditioned as a woman to fear, but it's so healthy for our body to have fat for the female triad and reproduction and health of our bones and joints. I always joke that, when I'm 80, am I really gonna think that much about those three pounds that I gained or lost and that I obsessed over. So I think that that's a perspective too of just finding kindness. 

And I think that clothing also plays a big role because I think that  when you feel good in the clothes that you have, then you feel good in your body. And so wearing stuff that makes you feel good, regardless of that number on the scale, regardless of  whatever other ancillary information you're telling yourself because the likelihood is that you're your biggest critic.

And body dysmorphia is something that I personally deal with all the time. I look in the mirror and I'm like, "Ugh, gosh, I hate the way that I look." And then it's just so negative. So, I think just finding room to be aware of that too is important. Be aware of when you're sliding into these negative self-talk moments.

Stef

What do you say to the girls that are being told they're too big to climb?

Sasha

I say, screw that guy, whoever told you that. As someone who's been told so often in my career, you don't look like a climber. Great. So what does a climber look like? And I also think that climbing naturally is an adaptive sport. Like you adapt to whether you're tall, you're short, you're, by societal standards, skinny or heavier. I even hate those terms, but I mean, there's such a mental component to climbing too. If you believe that you're capable of doing something, then that mindset shift right there is going to play such a huge role in your capability. 

And so it's also another reason of choosing your role models wisely. I don't like to follow and look up to women that I feel like are unhealthily in too skinny of a state of their career or have noticeably dropped a lot of weight for performance because I know for a fact that that doesn't make me feel good. And so I think being aware of that too is important.

Stef

Absolutely. It's a huge part of why I built Voice In Sport is also to see mentors that are more diverse in how they look. There's more than one climber body. There's more than one runner body. And we need to see more of that so that we believe it.

Sasha

I know. It's so important. It's so important to see just different body types, different people of different backgrounds. There's no one role model that fits everyone. Like my role models are gonna be different than someone else's role models because we're approaching differently and we want different things out of our sport too.

Stef

You've mentioned it a few times  when you're thinking about your sport, it's such an incredible physical and mental sport, you have to really hone in your skillset on both of those sides. And I know you're seeing a sports psychologist and we believe, obviously here at VIS too, we have 80 sports psychologists because we believe that there should be also choice for young women there too.

And you need to find a sports psychologist that really you connect with. And it might take trying two to three before you find your person. But obviously you've leaned into sports psychology, and the importance of  building your mental strength to be a great climber. And I love that it's also the title of your book, "Take The Lead." So talk to us a little bit about the mentality you have when you are leading on a climb. What are you thinking about when you're in that lead role?  And what do you do when you're not actually climbing to work on your mental strength?

Sasha

When I'm in that lead role and I'm climbing, I think that there's a very intimate connection with what I'm doing and an intense focus on the exact moves in front of me. You need to almost clear your mind of doubt and clear your mind of anything else. And I do struggle with staying attentive to single things at once. And so something for me is a habit that I've picked up is I'll do things like narrating my moves. And telling myself like, "Okay, right hand, left hand, move your right foot." Exactly what I'm doing. I'm telling myself that to kind of induce this flow state. And the more I narrate to myself and talk myself through certain motion, the more I can just mentally adapt in into that state. So that's been very helpful for me. 

And then on the non- climbing side, visualization is really important. There's some studies that really show the efficacy of when you're actually not doing your sport, but you're visualizing your sport, then you can even recruit the same muscle groups and having these physical gains that are coming from not even physically moving your body at all. So that's something that's really important and interesting around the sport science side. 

But I think more than anything, it's trying to find that belief in yourself to wipe away the doubt that you probably inevitably are gonna feel at different points in your life and trying to find that positive mindset shift.  I have the most success when I'm having the most fun and I'm very susceptible to energy around me and if I'm with people and climbing with people who make me feel not great, you can't always control that, but at least to the degree that I can, I try and avoid negative energy spheres in my life.

Stef

You're obviously preparing for your climbs and for a successful climb, but you also have to prepare for rescues. And so it's not just about the level of climbing that you yourself can do, but it's also about the people you're climbing with, and what if something goes wrong? So how do you prepare, for yourself, for rescues when you're thinking about your climbs?

Sasha

I like to go in into an expedition, just have a set of plans like plan A, B, C; risk mitigate what you can control, what you can't control. So what you can't control would be things like sporadic rockfall. But what you can control is knowing the safe points on a climb for where to move and how to be navigating up a climb safely. There's obviously weather patterns that you can't always control, but you can definitely get detailed weather pattern satellite information while you're out on an expedition and navigating those parameters of just having a plan in place that also has room for flexibility. So if something's gonna happen, being aware that you can make those shifts and lay in the groundwork that even in competition, the night before a competition, I would lay out my clothes down to like my hair tie because I wanted in that morning to wake up, put on the outfit, not think about what I'm wearing, have my hair done up, and that's just  one more thing that I can alleviate off of my plate from the focus and the mental energy needed for that day.

Stef

I love it. I also love that you talked about visualization, right? I mean, Adam Andra, basically mimics his entire route and that's a huge part of being a great ski racer too, you're thinking through your entire route. That's one of the sports that I competed in and visualization was just such a huge part of it. So when you think about the work that you've done with your sports psychologist and that's most applicable to being a great climber, what would you say are your top two things, advice you would give all young women to think about when it comes to the mental training?

Sasha

I would say from a universal perspective, self-talk has more weight than you'd think. And so really focus on finding a way to be positive towards yourself. And I say this with full transparency, that I am so far from perfect for this, but it's something that I'm working on. And then also, I would say finding ways to induce your flow state is really important because that flow state that I'm referring to is just when your mind and body are in this communication without having to tell your body what to do. Your mind just knows and you're performing, and then you're in this state of natural bliss where everything is kind of flowing together. 

And so for high performance, I think that that's a really essential state to try and tap into and work on skills to tap into it better and better and with more ease. And it's hard to control sometimes, but even if you're on a run like the first 10 minutes are so miserable, but as you get into like minute 20, maybe you start like tapping into just  that flow. 

Maybe it is, converging with that self-talk, but also thinking about the motion of what you're doing and thinking about just staying super present and trying to distance yourself from the natural, chaotic nature of everyday life. We have so many distractions and we live in a state of multitasking, so when we can just kind of quiet the noise, I think that that's a really helpful space to be in. And you can even work on that through meditation and through moments of stillness, through media and digital cleanses like waking up and not checking your phone first thing that you do and going to bed, reading a book or a magazine or whatever it is, rather than looking at social media until days off.

Stef

When you're out there in the unknown and you're climbing these mountains, I'm sure that you face fear. So I wanna talk a little bit about fear and how do you handle fear in those moments where you are actually scared and you're high up on a wall and there's a moment where you panic? How do you also prepare yourself for those moments and think about fear as a climber, and what advice would you have for other young women that are maybe finding themselves getting to that fear moment, during their climbs?

Sasha

Yeah, first of all, breathe. I think that's something that can happen is like that paralysis analysis moment where like you're frozen in space and feel like you don't know what to do. So, take a breath.I've definitely been in situations where fear is real and the consequences are really bad if I were to fall.

And so in those spaces, I think about eliminating that doubt and being fully present and being aware of the confidence that I need to have in order to do the next move. And committing myself to the knowledge that I have, that trust in myself to be able to do that. And then also on the other side is categorizing out where the irrational fear lies, whether you're bouldering in a climbing gym and you know that there's a safe landing below you, but you feel stagnant because you don't wanna fall or you're unaware of what that fall may feel like.

Sometimes I tell people just fall. Just let go and just feel that moment of falling and failure because that's like the ways to start breaking away these guards that we have around the fear of the unknown is the more we can challenge ourselves in the unknown and expose ourselves to things that do scare us, the more we can start pushing against that bubble of our safeguards and press ourselves a little bit more. And I will say like more within that irrational fear space than, don't go and do something super dangerous cuz it scares you, but do something that's maybe like you can mitigate and you can control the consequence. And you can't always control the consequence of anything in life. And so I think that that's the other thing. You could be, you know, walking across the street and get severely injured. And there's a lot that goes into just, I think living in more of a positive mindset attitude, that's important.

Stef

Let's talk about some of the things sometimes you can't control, which are injuries. I know that you've faced your own set of injuries and almost a career ending decision because you had double hip reconstruction. And that is an incredibly challenging injury to work through for a sport that requires a lot of mobility and movement. Can you walk us through that moment where you were like, "Wow, this is what I am facing right now," and how did you remain positive and work through that?

Sasha

It was one of the more challenging times in my life because I went through five hip reconstructive surgeries over the course of a year and a half, and I took off nine months of climbing. I had my pelvic bone broken into four pieces on both sides twice and my abs cut through three times. So the reality of like how long I was facing a recovery was really hard for me, the days where I couldn't even get myself out of bed on my own or go to the bathroom on my own. 

I really leaned into meditation and writing. I did do a lot of my writing of my book during this process. I focused on what I could control, which was showing up to my PT really leaning into those exercises and doing them and not coming up with like an excuse of  "woe is me," but staying focused on the grand scheme of things.

But also it's the space in my life where I did have time to launch my company. I had registered the name Send Bars in 2012 when I was  making my own bars, but I never had time to do it. And then seeing the opportunity that I did have was like a gift of time off from my sport to focus on something else. And that was  putting my mind into a challenging sphere versus just my body. I think that it's a lot of controlling what you can, accepting that there's gonna be really challenging days. And one of the worst feelings as an athlete is just feeling sidelined and  recognizing that jealousy is real and natural. When I would see other female athletes cheat things or male athletes that I felt jealous of, I was like, "I wish I could be doing that, but I can't." And vocalizing it and being aware of the fact that, yeah, it stings, it sucks to see someone that you're competitive with achieve something that you wish you could do, but you can do nothing about. 

But I think that us as women go through such scarcity model mindsets too, of “if she has that, then there's no way I can have that because there's only one seat at the table” but starting to understand that like we can pull up more seats or build another table. And I think that in climbing, that's been a really big thing too, that I see is there's so much harsh comparison. Even on the female side, it can be really catty because you see a woman achieve something or get a new sponsor or something like that, and then all of a sudden, I feel like people kind of jump to the conclusion that then that's out of their table for possibility. But it's really  the growth and the achievements of other women in sport is only bolstering up the entirety of our gender. So focusing on that and knowing that as I grow, you grow, or as you grow, I grow. And seeing that overall mindset of inclusivity is really important too.

Stef

Oh, I love that. It's so hard to see other women tearing other women down. And when you're at your worst sometimes the worst comes out. And so how do you ensure that you create that environment where you're lifting other people up, especially other women in a space where it's already difficult to be a woman? So, you're talking about climbing here and male dominated climbing, but the business world and the business world of sport, or even startups where most funding goes to men, it's difficult. So you wanna be there supporting each other, not tearing each other down.

Sasha

A hundred percent. And I think that it's such a multifaceted conversation because it comes from, companies have an obligation to recognize that women need to be supported in the same way that male athletes need to be supported in the same way coverage goes. I mean, even in climbing there's been conversations of like, "Are first female ascents releveant?" And I'm like, "Why wouldn't they be relevant?"  

It's women achieving something that opens the floodgates to other women seeing inspiration and possibility. That gives me inspiration, like when I see a woman achieve something that's really groundbreaking that no woman has done before, I'm like, "Wow, I feel like I can do that too." So I think that when it comes to myself and feeling supportive of other women doing things, it's really about the inspiration that can lead to, and leaning into the motivation that it gives me in my training and then showing up to my workout because I wanna be like her and achieve something like that, of that magnitude.

Stef

I hope everybody hears that advice and then looks to their teammate after this conversation and figures out a way how you can elevate your teammates, right? And it can be small things, it doesn't have to be moving mountains for everybody every day, right? It can be small comments, small positive pieces of encouragement. And when you're injured, you have the opportunity to do a lot more of that, you know, if you have the right mindset at that moment. But it's tough cause it just, at the end of it sucks to be injured. 

Sasha

But that's the thing too, we don't live in a world where everything's like dandy. So I think being able to laugh off the hard moments too. When I think of my hips surgeries, I wish I could say, I did this positive thing and this. No, there were some really, really dark, hard days. Having the  fluidity of conversation to say that too, I think is important. When I hear that someone else had a down day, it's not encouraging, but it's at least like humanizing.

Stef

Yeah. And you went from one tough thing, which is recovering from an injury, into another really hard thing, which is building a company from the ground up. So building your company, what has been the biggest surprise that you would share to all the other young women athletes out there that are maybe considering to start their own companies?

Sasha

I think that there's such a big aspect of learning on the go and building the plane as you're in the air. I knew nothing about the CPG world, which is the consumer packaged goods for those of you who didn't know what CPG was because I didn't either and all these acronyms that get thrown out at you and you're like learning the language because it's a whole new language. And so using good old Google to learn and start building the foundations of the network there, and learning what it takes to commercialize your recipes and bars.  

I will say that something that's been really encouraging for me as a business owner is working with other women. My team is all female built and we're on a team, which climbing is a very individual sport and being open to your weaknesses and letting other people fill those voids has been something that I've had to learn because I'm used to trying to do it all and delegating and  being accepting of where I just am not the greatest and being like, "Cool, this is my extreme weak point. But that's great that you love this becauseI actually hate it, so thank you."  

Being aware of where you don't shine and then finding the moments where you do shine and  leaning into that. But a lot of it's like you don't have to know it all. And I'm still learning. I mean, I'm so fresh to the bar industry, but I know what I don't want and I know what I want to represent. And, we've also just kind of bootstrapped our own finances and like we didn't take on some crazy amount of investment or anything like that. So we're really small and scrappy and doing it the way that we can control, which is by the standards that we have. And so far we've fully been independent in doing it ourselves and it's been really cool to see  this positive reception. And when I see people, when I'm at the gym, eating a Send Bar, I'm like, "Oh my God, I created that."

Stef

It's a pretty amazing experience and I'm so inspired by the work that you guys have done. So we always love to give some last, parting advice to all of the young women athletes out there today. So let's start with what advice you would give to any young girl out there today; if you could whisper to your 13 year old self, what piece of advice would you wanna whisper to her?

Sasha

I would whisper, "Just go for it. You'll never know until you try."

Stef

And you know specifically for the climbers out there, right? You went through a lot yourself. We heard a lot about your journey and your stories, and I'd love for those younger girls today to not have to go through some of those battles, especially when it comes to body image and confidence. So what advice would you have to all of the young women climbers out there?

Sasha

Listen to your body. Your body really communicates with you what is working and what doesn't work and push yourself too. When something scares you, like maybe you're climbing 5.10 and you're curious about what 5.11 feels like, get on the 5.11. We all have to fall in order to expand and improve. So challenge yourself on terrain that is challenging and it does push you.

Stef

At VIS, we're all about trying to change the future of women's sports. If you could change one thing for the future of women's sports, what would it be?

Sasha

It would be access. I know that we're still globally fighting for access for all women to have the opportunity and the support to take part in sports. And I think that that's just such a fundamental right as humans to have, and so encouraging access would be a big aspect to that and also supporting female athletes and covering female athletes.

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Stef

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me on the Voice in Sport Podcast. It was such a pleasure to get to know you today.

Sasha

Thank you so much for having me, and I can't wait to follow up.

Stef

This week's episode was produced and edited by Ana Narayan, a VIS creator from the University of Oregon. Sasha's journey gives us so much insight into the importance of hard work, courage, confidence, and the power of using our voice for good. Her willingness to take risks and tackle the hard climbs inspires us to step out of our comfort zone and embrace uncertainty.

Her openness to talk about her own personal struggles with body image and disordered eating reminds us to focus on what our bodies can do rather than how they look. We are so grateful to have Sasha as part of the Voice in Sport community as a VIS mentor. 

Please click on the share button in this episode and send it to another athlete that you think might enjoy this conversation. And if you liked our conversation with Sasha, please leave us a rating and review on Apple and Spotify. You can follow Sasha on Instagram @SashaDigiulian, or check out her profile on Voice in Sport. If you're logged into Voice in Sport, head to the feed and check out our article about making peace with your body.

Also, take a look at the sessions page and sign up for any of our other free or paid mentoring sessions with our 250 plus VIS League mentors, or our 80 plus VIS experts in sports psychology and nutrition. If you're interested in learning more about body image and self-esteem, please check out episode number 82 where I talk to VIS mentor Allie Ostrander about disordered eating and the narratives around bodies in women's sports. See you next week on The Voice in Sport Podcast.

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